This takes us far afield but I think theist have a point about morality. Morals don’t come from physical facts, they’re group norms and in that sense they are transcendent.

The most venomous arguments against non-theism follow this pattern:
Without fear of damnation, there is nothing to keep a non-theist in line. Therefore, non-theists cannot be trusted.

The unspoken partner to that point is that without promise of eternal reward, people have no incentive to do good. Their world view demands a referee to witness their good deeds and punish injustices against them.

We definitely fall into the minority by admitting ignorance. One big portion of our culture demands faith in the divine. Another huge portion of our culture demands knowledgeability and ridicules ignorance. Theists meet both demands, and are accepted. Outspoken atheists reject the first demand, but fold on the second.

Agnostics reject both demands, and just piss everyone off. That alone would be a good enough reason for me.

See I’m a non-wussie agnostic. Those are the ones that don’t want to take a stand because they want the appearance of being scientific/objective but they don’t want to piss off the big guy (given an even infinitesimal chase the ‘big guy’ exists). I’m not one of those.

I’m a agnostic because I believe that both Neoaths and Believers can be right. There is no natural explanation for God and in this sense none exist. That should make the Neoaths happy.

Now, there are truths that aren’t material facts, though. These don’t have to be mystical, supernatural truths. (I can’t make myself believe in ghosts.) That my desk is hard when I tap on it is such a truth. Hardness is an emergent property of the crystalline structure of molecules that make up my desk. Hardness is, in and of itself, not a physical fact.

The facts I gave above (money and priests) are maybe more easy to swallow.

In this sense, there is a God.

I can’t call myself a theist though because I want to maintain an air of scientific objectivity… er wait…

I don’t call myself a theist because I don’t believe in a guy sitting on a thrown in heaven and I don’t think people go anywhere when they die in a physical sense. In other words, God’s not a guy and heaven’s not a place.

Agnosticism is the only scientifically defensible position, anyway.

If I believe in God (or the afterlife), I believe in him as a metaphor. But metaphors are pretty damned important. Take the metaphor of money, for example.

Like I said to Gavin, I think God is a fact like money (or marriages or marriage ceremonies or the man in a funny suit that presides over a marriage ceremony is called a priest) are facts. They’re facts because we collectively agree about them.

None of these, least of which God, are facts because of their physics or their material aspects.

Are you a deist?